Re: [dev] Web development in C (or, C'ing clearly through the webs of bias)

From: Ciprian Dorin Craciun <>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 12:13:45 +0200

On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 5:48 AM <> wrote:
> The thing I really don't understand, is this mailing list attracting some
> random group of guys, at regular time intervals, almost totally missing the
> point of "suckless", and though, pretending to get it while bringing on the
> table _abominations_ like c++/go/whatever. Namely software perfectly alien to
> what "suckless" strives to become.

I've been closely following this mailing list since early 2010, most
of the time "lurking in the shadows" in the hopes to find links to
small hidden "gems", and to take-in some refreshing ideas about
software development and operating-systems tools. But I've rarely
participated in the discussions, mainly due to the "strong opinions"
that seemed to be thrown all over the place, many times without actual
facts to back them out.

However lately (perhaps for some years), as Zach stated, many (if not
most) threads that (at least to me) appeared to touch interesting
topics, and with interesting points of view not seen elsewhere, have
been squashed and labeled as "trolling", "misinformed", (and hopefully
in a sarcastic manner) "by people fed by (your non-favorite
corporation) propaganda"...

And yes, I've read the "political correctness" statement in some other
emails in this thread, and I understand it: this is a small
community, therefore it can choose its accepted views. However this
shouldn't be a show-stopper against reason and dialog.

Thus I can only say this: "A little diversity each day, keeps the
mono-culture away." :)

> What "suckless" is, is that hard to understand???

Yes... (Especially since any discussion on the topic is killed before
it even starts...)

> Or is this the result of an accute lack of perspective?

Yes! (Nothing states more "lack of perspective" than squashing any
discussion about "perspectives"...)

The `` philosophy states (picking some items that I think
are highlights of what "suckless" is to me):

> Our philosophy is about keeping things simple, minimal and usable. [...]
> We strive to maintain minimalism and clarity to drive development to completion. [...]
> Most hackers actually don't care much about code quality.
> Thus, if they get something working which seems to solve a problem, they stick with it. [...]
> Code complexity is the mother of bloated, hard to use, and totally inconsistent software. [...]

So based on the above, let me commit heresy and state:

C is not "suckless" based on the above ides:
* C is not minimal; (I understand "why" it is not minimal, but this
is besides the point;)
* C is not as usable as other languages; (how many times have we as
developers rewritten linked-lists? how would one describe using a
hash-map library in C?)
* C code is not "clear"; (just having `void *` as structure members
and callback arguments, using `int` as "descriptors", etc.;)
* C code is complex; (try concatenating a few strings together;)

And lastly I would say that the statement "thus, if they get something
working which seems to solve a problem, they stick with it." applies
perfectly to the C mono-culture that has brewed here lately...

> Oh God! And I am feeding this beast right now...

No, you are just participating in a civilized discussion, which
perhaps can broaden all our views.

Received on Sat Feb 02 2019 - 11:13:45 CET

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